Thank you, Mr Ramirez I'm going to ask Mr Kelsall responsible to proceed Thank you Thank you, Madam Member And Mr Ramirez Hi How are you doing I'm okay I just have a few questions for you Okay They're mostly They're just focussed on that note that you received The one that signed an angel Do you have a copy of that note in front of you No, thank you No, no Okay I just want to make sure we're talking about the same Right So So you You recognise that note Yes Is that my signature Yes, that's okay So, yeah So who Who do you think that refers to Al Mitchell Everybody knows that name And where I come from, you know, he's the head of a cartel Which cartel The The member in the police couldn't work in this room Okay So So That's right So my concern is, is really this And I want you to answer me the best the best you can But my concern is I find it unlikely or implausible that the leader of one of the most powerful, powerful cartels in Mexico is going to take the time to write a threatening note, not to his rival cartel, not to a police officer who's part of investigating his enemy, but to you, to the owner of an auto parts shop You yourself said you have no involvement in any of this So to the owner of a shop whose sister is part of an investigation, like to me that honestly, that just doesn't make any sense Madam Member, I'd like to make an objection I object to this line of questioning for two reasons First, my friend didn't pose any discernable question to Mr Ramirez Second, my client cannot possibly know what motivates the leader of the cartel I will ignore the question as it goes to the whether the claimant is really at risk There is plenty of evidence in the national documentary package and elsewhere about the behaviour of these cartels Besides, it is a credibility concern and I have and so should be put to the claimant so I can hear what he has to say Thank you, Madam Members So I'll just pose it as a more clear question Point taken Why would a man show write a note to you I don't know What I know is then was the name at the bottom with this note and everybody around where I come from knows who that names is And so And it was his care, too Do you know of others Do you know of others who have received personalised, personal, threatening notes from El Menchu No But nobody goes around saying I receive a note from And you know, I mean, this is this is not happening So I don't know You could be talking to someone that is in this situation, but you don't know So I just know that happened to me I don't have a way to know It's many other people receive it, you know Do you have any other evidence that Elemento takes the time to personally write threatening notes to ordinary civilians such as yourself No, I don't Okay, well, thank you Those are all the questions that I had Mr Cancel Cancel You may proceed with your questions Thank you, Madam Member I have only a few questions for Mr Ramirez First, Mr Ramirez, I want to ask you some questions about the investigation in your basis of claim form, as well as your testimony here today You describe the investigation of the Santa Rosa de Lima cartel by the State Judicial police Did you mean that they were only investigating the murder of Elementos nephew No, no, no I they were investigating many things, though The the criminal activities of the cartels You know, only that cartel All the cartels, You know, they are stealing now Gasoline, you know They are doing threats to people They are killings They are, you know, asking for money There is many things than the police is is investigating them And this is a part of, you know, the the killing of the nephews is just a part of a whole investigation Hold on in there Paragraphs six and seven of your original book narrative, if you want to refer to that You seem to say that the police investigation is only for the murder of the nephew Just this that, may I say, referring to my case But as I said, you know, the The judicial police investigate the cartel's activities And this one was the issue that was more relevant at that time But they investigate many, many other issues Missy Kelso, you may proceed Thank you, Madam Member Mr Ramirez, I now want to ask you a few questions about the role of your sister in the investigation I just want to clarify a point The cartel's initial motivation to get at you was to get at your sister Is that correct Yes But now, especially with the arrest of the head of the Santa Rosa de Lima cartel, is it about making sure that they follow through on that threat Yes In other words, whatever their initial motivation was All they want to do right now is to ensure that they're perceived as dangerous whenever they make a threat Is that correct I think so Thank you Now, in your earlier testimony, you indicated that you did not know the specific role of your sister in the investigation into the Santa Rosa Dilemma cartel Is that correct Yes, it is Apart from knowing that she's not the head of the investigation, is that correct Yes So you don't know if she was unimportant or important to the investigation No, I didn't Do you know what part of the investigation she was working on Uh, no, but we We talk about the, uh The nephew, though So and so I don't know exactly which part, but she was mentioned that if you were to assess how important she was to the investigation, could you perhaps describe how important she might have been to the investigation Um, well, she's, uh, she was a very, uh, experience Uh, you know, police officer She was in the, in the in the middle of the state police Uh, she was a sub inspector, you know, So in the investigation unit, if I remember Well, she's around 20 years in a cell officer, so she has a lot experience, though And let me press you there a little bit further to discuss your sister's experiences in all that time on the state judicial police force How much cartel activity has she investigated I, I don't really know But the the the cartels in Mexico have been there for a long time And, you know, and she has been there in the police for a long time And she was talking to me about different things about the cartels So I went to meet and went to see them for her to to give me more information Uh, I don't know how easy it was for me or for her No So that's why was a comment only then we received But I read that comments, I believe and she has a lot experience I believe you touched on this, Mr Ramirez, but I want to be absolutely clear Can you relate to us to the best of your knowledge What was her rank on the state judicial police force Uh, sub inspector of the Investigation unit So she was about a mid level officer Yeah Yeah Middle rank Thank you, Mr Ramirez I want to now move forward to discuss and ask you some questions about what life might be like in Mexico City for you Okay You had indicated earlier that it would be hard living in Mexico City without your wife and daughter Why wouldn't they be able to live with you Hmm Well, as they said, the you know, we don't have a way to survive with can So someone has to keep the business open back in our city And even if we keep the business open and we have two houses and, you know, and many businesses in the Mexico City so expensive to rent in, so and they don't have a way to start a new career or new business in 62 And the retirement doesn't work in Mexico like here, though You have to keep working You know, you have to, uh, to survive So I think the that was the main reason, you know, between safety and, um, put my daughter to proper poverty And so that's why I decided to leave Mr Ramirez, you mentioned the shop Even with the shop, how much money will you have Uh, I don't know You know, I think I won't be able to say in Canadian dollars Um, but we were We were We were okay In in in my city, you know I mean, we were a small business Branding day by day So I don't know if business is going to keep afloat in the same way ever The eyes of the owners are not there So and I'm pretty sure that the income is going to reduce, you know, the profit that we've made And and people are going to start, you know, maybe using some money for then and, you know, and you're you don't have a way to I believe that we don't we wouldn't have it now if I won't be able to tell you the amount But running these businesses for a long time is this it is a business then is you need to be on top of things So that's my biggest concern that we won't have the money Thank you, Mr Ramirez Not a member Those are all my questions Thank you both And we will take a short recess And after we come back, I will ask Mr Council and Council give their solutions of their voices as 20 minutes And for the solutions it is Madam Member for me as well Thank you We'll take a short recess Thank you 13 46 13 36 13 30 13 24 13 19 13 08 13 03 12 53 12 44 12 41 12 32 12 27 12 23 12 20 12 08 11 59 11 53 11 42 11 37 11 29 11 15 11 09 11 02 10 53 10 48 10 40 10 31 10 27 10 23 10 14 10 11 10 07 10 02 9 54 9 49 9 45 9 35 9 30 9 24 9 15 9 11 9 00 8 48 8 36 8 26 8 19 8 14 8 00 7 56 7 51 7 42 7 31 7 23 7 15 7 12 7 06 7 00 6 54 6 42 6 40 6 31 6 21 6 13 6 06 6 01 5 58 5 52 5 43 5 33 5 23 5 18 5 12 5 06 5 00 4 55 4 49 4 41 4 34 4 22 4 19 4 14 4 10 4 06 3 55 3 52 3 48 3 41 3 37 3 29 3 19 3 16 2 58 2 51 2 47 2 37 2 29 2 21 2 14 2 09 2 01 1 53 1 49 1 37 1 31 1 22 1 18 1 13 1 08 1 03 0 57 0 53 0 49 0 45 0 41 0 33 0 28 0 23 0 16 0 10 MENtion IRB member inroduce hearing and ask firs se of quesions Were there any questions by the RPD that you felt were poor in some way For instance, maybe you find them unfair in some way or irrelevant Which ones Why

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Thank you, Mr. Ramirez. I'm going to ask Mr. Kelsall responsible to proceed. Thank you. Thank you, Madam Member. And Mr. Ramirez. Hi. How are

Thank you, Mr. Ramirez. I'm going to ask Mr. Kelsall responsible to proceed.
Thank you. Thank you, Madam Member. And Mr. Ramirez.
Hi. How are you doing? I'm okay. I just have a few questions for you.
Okay. They're mostly. They're just focussed on that note that you received.
The one that signed an angel. Do you have a copy of that note in front of you?
No, thank you. No, no. Okay. I just want to make sure we're talking about the same.
Right. So. So you. You recognise that note?
Yes. Is that my signature? Yes, that's okay.
So, yeah. So who.
Who do you think that refers to? Al Mitchell. Everybody knows that name.
And where I come from, you know, he's the head of a cartel.
Which cartel? The. The member in the police couldn't work in this room.
Okay. So? So. That's right. So my concern is, is really this.
And I want you to answer me the best the best you can.
But my concern is I find it unlikely or implausible that the leader of one of the most powerful,
powerful cartels in Mexico is going to take the time to write a threatening note,
not to his rival cartel, not to a police officer who's part of investigating his enemy, but to you, to the owner of an auto parts shop.
You yourself said you have no involvement in any of this.
So to the owner of a shop whose sister is part of an investigation, like to me that honestly, that just doesn't make any sense.
Madam Member, I'd like to make an objection. I object to this line of questioning for two reasons.
First, my friend didn't pose any discernable question to Mr. Ramirez.
Second, my client cannot possibly know what motivates the leader of the cartel.
I will ignore the question as it goes to the whether the claimant is really at risk.
There is plenty of evidence in the national documentary package and elsewhere about the behaviour of these cartels.
Besides, it is a credibility concern and I have and so should be put to the claimant so I can hear what he has to say.
Thank you, Madam Members. So I'll just pose it as a more clear question.
Point taken. Why would a man show write a note to you?
I don't know. What I know is then was the name at the bottom with this note and everybody around where I come from knows who that names is.
And so. And it was his care, too.
Do you know of others? Do you know of others who have received personalised, personal, threatening notes from El Menchu?
No. But nobody goes around saying I receive a note from.
And you know, I mean, this is this is not happening.
So I don't know. You could be talking to someone that is in this situation, but you don't know.
So I just know that happened to me. I don't have a way to know.
It's many other people receive it, you know.
Do you have any other evidence that Elemento takes the time to personally write threatening notes to ordinary civilians such as yourself?
No, I don't. Okay, well, thank you.
Those are all the questions that I had. Mr. Cancel.
Cancel? You may proceed with your questions. Thank you, Madam Member.
I have only a few questions for Mr. Ramirez.
First, Mr. Ramirez, I want to ask you some questions about the investigation in your basis of claim form, as well as your testimony here today.
You describe the investigation of the Santa Rosa de Lima cartel by the State Judicial police.
Did you mean that they were only investigating the murder of Elementos nephew?
No, no, no. I they were investigating many things, though.
The the criminal activities of the cartels.
You know, only that cartel. All the cartels, You know, they are stealing now.
Gasoline, you know. They are doing threats to people.
They are killings. They are, you know, asking for money.
There is many things than the police is is investigating them.
And this is a part of, you know, the the killing of the nephews is just a part of a whole investigation.
Hold on in there. Paragraphs six and seven of your original book narrative, if you want to refer to that.
You seem to say that the police investigation is only for the murder of the nephew.
Just this that, may I say, referring to my case.
But as I said, you know, the.
The judicial police investigate the cartel's activities.
And this one was the issue that was more relevant at that time.
But they investigate many, many other issues. Missy Kelso, you may proceed.
Thank you, Madam Member. Mr. Ramirez, I now want to ask you a few questions about the role of your sister in the investigation.
I just want to clarify a point. The cartel's initial motivation to get at you was to get at your sister.
Is that correct? Yes.
But now, especially with the arrest of the head of the Santa Rosa de Lima cartel, is it about making sure that they follow through on that threat?
Yes. In other words, whatever their initial motivation was.
All they want to do right now is to ensure that they're perceived as dangerous whenever they make a threat.
Is that correct? I think so.
Thank you. Now, in your earlier testimony,
you indicated that you did not know the specific role of your sister in the investigation into the Santa Rosa Dilemma cartel.
Is that correct? Yes, it is. Apart from knowing that she's not the head of the investigation, is that correct?
Yes. So you don't know if she was unimportant or important to the investigation?
No, I didn't. Do you know what part of the investigation she was working on?
Uh, no, but we.
We talk about the, uh. The nephew, though.
So and so. I don't know exactly which part, but she was mentioned that if you were to assess how important she was to the investigation,
could you perhaps describe how important she might have been to the investigation?
Um, well, she's, uh, she was a very, uh, experience.
Uh, you know, police officer. She was in the, in the in the middle of the state police.
Uh, she was a sub inspector, you know, So in the investigation unit, if I remember.
Well, she's around 20 years in a cell officer, so she has a lot experience, though.
And let me press you there a little bit further to discuss your sister's experiences in all that time on the state judicial police force.
How much cartel activity has she investigated?
I, I don't really know. But the the the cartels in Mexico have been there for a long time.
And, you know, and she has been there in the police for a long time.
And she was talking to me about different things about the cartels.
So I went to meet and went to see them for her to to give me more information.
Uh, I don't know how easy it was for me or for her.
No. So that's why was a comment only then we received.
But I read that comments, I believe and she has a lot experience.
I believe you touched on this, Mr. Ramirez, but I want to be absolutely clear.
Can you relate to us to the best of your knowledge?
What was her rank on the state judicial police force?
Uh, sub inspector of the Investigation unit.
So she was about a mid-level officer? Yeah.
Yeah. Middle rank. Thank you, Mr. Ramirez.
I want to now move forward to discuss and ask you some questions about what life might be like in Mexico City for you.
Okay. You had indicated earlier that it would be hard living in Mexico City without your wife and daughter.
Why wouldn't they be able to live with you? Hmm.
Well, as they said, the you know, we don't have a way to survive with can.
So someone has to keep the business open back in our city.
And even if we keep the business open and we have two houses and, you know,
and many businesses in the Mexico City so expensive to rent in, so and they don't have a way to start a new career or new business in 62.
And the retirement doesn't work in Mexico like here, though.
You have to keep working. You know, you have to, uh, to survive.
So I think the that was the main reason, you know, between safety and, um, put my daughter to proper poverty.
And so that's why I decided to leave.
Mr. Ramirez, you mentioned the shop. Even with the shop, how much money will you have?
Uh, I don't know. You know, I think I won't be able to say in Canadian dollars.
Um, but we were. We were. We were okay.
In in in my city, you know?
I mean, we were a small business.
Branding day by day. So I don't know if business is going to keep afloat in the same way ever.
The eyes of the owners are not there.
So and I'm pretty sure that the income is going to reduce, you know, the profit that we've made.
And and people are going to start, you know, maybe using some money for then and, you know, and you're you don't have a way to.
I believe that we don't we wouldn't have it now if I won't be able to tell you the amount.
But running these businesses for a long time is this it is a business then is you need to be on top of things.
So that's my biggest concern that we won't have the money.
Thank you, Mr. Ramirez. Not a member. Those are all my questions.
Thank you both. And we will take a short recess.
And after we come back, I will ask Mr. Council and Council give their solutions of their voices as 20 minutes.
And for the solutions it is Madam Member for me as well.
Thank you. We'll take a short recess. Thank you.

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MENtion IRB member inroduce hearing and ask firs se of quesions

Were there any questions by the RPD that you felt were poor in some way? For instance, maybe you find them unfair in some way or irrelevant. Which ones? Why?